Seventeen Questions ….08

 Based upon your replies in round two we discuss here the issues in following paragraphs -

(1) Three gathas of Kartikeya Anupreksha-

It is our stand that while Samyak Drishti is faithful towards the subject of Keval Gyan but he acts in accordance with the subject of Shruta Gyan.

In reality either of the deaths, whether it be akaal maran (untimely death) or kaal maran ( timely death), both are vyavahara form hence both are subjects of Vyavahara naya since soul is immortal. You call the kaal maran to be subject of Nishchaya naya which  is wrong. You have accepted Vyavahara naya to be Upacharita Naya, which too is incorrect. In accordance with Agam the Vyavahara also it real Sadbhoot , true and Sadbhavatmak  (existent).

The words or defining knowledge explaining the part or nishchaya form meaning of the substance is called as Nishchaya naya. While word or defining vyavahara form meaning is called Vyavahara naya. In this way both are considered as dharmas of the substance.

You wish to establish that all the events occur upon attainment of their opportune moment which is incorrect. In Agam the Lok has been preached to engage in duty for attainment of objective and for attainment of salvation they have been preached to traverse on path of dharma.

You are believing the manifestation of substance to be in sequential order, even then for attainment of objective you traverse on the cause effect relationship, then what can that be called? If you accept it as subject of vyavahara naya then it remains imaginary asadbhoot mithya only.

It is our stand that the anger etc. form shades experienced in the manifestation of soul having nature of self dependent manifestation, is due to the nimitta reason of anger etc. form karmas only. In the same way the self established nature of mirror is to reflect the substances but the arrangement of which substance is being reflected is dependent upon that substance only.

(2) Why do Siddhas  not accrue karma bondage ? –

You have stated that the Vaibhavik capability of Siddhas exist even in this state and the external nimittas are existent everywhere in the Lok then who can prevent them from being worldly?

The answer is that nimitta cause for making the jivas as worldly is Dravya karma which is not existent in Siddhas . Although the Lok is flooded with karamana varganas, even so they are not of the form of Dravya karma hence they cannot be nimitta for making the jiva worldly.

With complete destruction of Dravya karmas only, Siddhahood is attained and on account of absence of ragas etc. which are cause for accrual of new Dravya karma bondage, the bondage of new Dravya karmas do not occur.

To say that nimitta causes are flooded in the Lok is incorrect. When the form of Siddhas believed by you, who are capable of carrying out deeds by means of Upadan alone, are equipped with Vaibhavik capability then who can prevent them from becoming worldly by means of their own Upadan  alone? And why do you not become Siddha by means of your Upadan capability now itself?

The external means for activities of jivas are karma-nokarma form accumulated pudgala. Due to the lack of the pudgala means the Siddhas are inactive. Hence they do not accrue karma bondage.

If it is said that everything is manifesting  in accordance with the eternal sequential order only then if it is not described as Niyativad then what else can be described as Ekant Niyativad ? This only has been declared as Mithyatva in Jain Agam granths.

(3) Consideration of some topics pertaining to Karanuyoga –

You have manufactured some rules based upon your own wishes contrary to Agam. The contradiction observed in them would be revealed to you along with proof of Agam next.

First of all, the fact is that there is no definite time for Jiva to attain Samyak darshan, Sanyam, Tapa, Shreni, Moksha etc.  Then how can the time of occurrence of apakarshan, Utkarshan, sthitighat, anubhagghat, sankraman and avipak nirjara of karmas with the manifestations of jiva be definite ?

You have created two rules contrary to Agam-

(1) The karmas which have capability of being Utkarshit, Apakarshit, Sankramit and Udeerit due to nimitta of those manifestations, in that time in the same quantity with the nimitta of those manifestations they undergo Apakarshan, Utkarshan, Sankraman and Udderana.

(2) At the time of bandh, the sthiti bandh and anubhag bandh which accrues, at that time itself such capability gets established in those karmas that upon attainment of right moment, with the nimitta of external nokarmas and predefined manifestations those karmas undergo apakarshan etc. form manifestations.

Both of these are contrary to Agam.

From the arguments given , it appears to establish that all the deeds are carried out by Upadan alone and nimitta is irrelevant.

You have tried to establish that with one nimitta cause only one deed can be carried out and not different ones. But with one reason different deeds can be carried out. With different assisting causes, the same manifestation of Jiva results in different duration and intensity of bondage. The Praman is as follows-

Dhavla 12- By means of Sanklesh, how can six orders of bondage of innumerable lok praman anubhag can accrue?

Answer- This is no problem. In one Sanklesh, anubhag bandh with innumerable lok praman six orders adhyavasans with anubhag bandh sthan are feasible.

The other issue which you have raised is pertaining to Nimitta-Upadan. You have asked that if business of the Nimitta is for self as well as Upadan then it has to carry out two deeds which is contrary to Agam.

From this you have concluded that each dravya carries out its own deed. Only upon observing the external pervasiveness between the two such Nimitta-Naimittik relation is accepted.

The view point of Agam is as follows-

Although Upadan only manifests into the deed form, but it is not carried out till Nimitta does not function in favourable manner. There is no doubt that nimitta engages in one activity  which is Upadan for its own manifestation while at the same time it is assisting as nimitta in the manifestation of other substance. Thus our stand is that same deed is upadan for self and nimitta for the other. This eliminates the fear due to which you desire to call Nimitta as irrelevant.

A substance, in spite of being Upadan for its own deeds, is also nimitta for deed of another substance on the basis of anvaya-vyatirek ( logical connection-distinction).

It has to be kept in mind that the thing which is Upadan for its own deed , with the same action, it is nimitta for the deed of another substance. Therefore the objection which is raised for the thing to be having dual activity at the same time, is not applicable.

It appears that you wish to call all nimittas as being of the same type but it is not so. This too is contrary to Agam.

In Agam Nimitta have been described to be two kinds Prerak ( motivating) and Udaseen (detached). The one which instigates the substance to engage in its activity is Prerak nimitta like hammer of goldsmith etc. The one which do not motivate for activity and remain detached are Udaseen nimitta like akash,  dharma, kaal etc.

The other topic is pertaining to Akaal Maran-

In reality whatever description of kaal maran and akaal maran is observed in the Agam , all that is Vyavahara description only since from aspect of Nishchaya naya the soul is immortal only. It is surprising that you call kaal maran and akaal maran to be the same as kaal maran and treat it as subjects of Nishchaya naya.

Your assertion that by accepting akaal maran one would have to accept akaal janma also, is wrong. The reason is that the death does not occur without bandh . The ayu being enjoyed can undergo Udeerana hence akaal maran is possible. However the birth takes place in accordance with previously bonded ayu hence the issue of akaal birth does not arise.

The jiva undergoing kaal maran or akaal maran has identical fruition of next ayu hence just the way jiva undergoing kaal maran reaches destination by means of Anu Poorvi karma, gati karma etc. insentient karmas, in the same way the arrangement exists for those undergoing akaal maran.

In respect of akaal maran your views are as follows-

1. You are Niyativadi hence in your view point kaal maran and akaal maran do not have any difference i.e. the time of akaal maran is destined the same way as that of kaal maran.

2. The description of akaal maran in Agam is from aspect of Vyavahara naya only.

3. In your view, we accept akaal maran to be from Nishchaya aspect.

In respect of the last issue we have already stated that in our view both kaal maran and akaal maran are Vyavahara sides.

In respect of second issue both of us accept it as Vyavahara side but you believe Vyavahara naya to be untrue. However in view of Agam the Vyavahara naya is equally true like Nishchaya naya is true. If you accept Vyavahara naya to be imaginary then why did Agam need to describe it ?

You have not clarified how you accept both kaal maran as well  as akaal maran as Nishchaya side. Since the soul is immortal then both of these events should be taken as Vyavahara statements only.

(4) SwaKaal-

In support of Kram Baddha paryaya, you have used the term SwaKaal several times, which is analysed now-

SwaKaal is contemplated from two aspects (1) From aspect of swa-chatushtaya (own four-some)  and (2) Nimitta karan form kaal Dravya for manifestation of dravyas.

(1) When considered from aspect of swa-chatushtaya then the implication of swakaal term is sequence of manifestation of Dravya at every moment. That manifestation is also dependent upon the activities of causes. Since the activities of cause can be sequential as well as non sequential, therefore generating the Siddhant of Kram Baddha Paryaya based upon the principle of swakaal is of no consequence.

(2) If the kaal Dravya nimitta in the manifestation is accepted as SwaKaal , then that Kaal Dravya being detached is equally supportive for both types of sequential and non sequential manifestations depending upon their own sequential and non sequential nimitta reasons. Hence that kaal is also not supportive of the sequential order.

In 47 Nayas shri Amrit Chadra Suri has said that the manifestation occurs at the right time from aspect of Kaal naya. From aspect of Akaal naya it is not at the right time. In this way in the manifestation of paryaya he is clearly refuting the Ekant sequential order of kaal.

He has dealt with the Niyati and Aniyati Naya also-

The one which is independent of reasons is Niyati, like heat in fire and the one which is dependent upon the reasons is Aniyati, like heat in water.

Pandit Phoolchandji has written that-

There is such as belief that every event has Niyat (predefined) kaal and the event occurs at that moment only and not at any other time. Those who believe so, they do not accept any other nimitta other than kaal. But upon consideration it can be realised that this belief is not logical since in the production of deed just as kaal is nimitta, in the same way others are also nimitta. Hence accepting only kaal as the prime reason for production of event is not correct.

Further- Sometimes prior to  Niyat kaal the karma carries out its deed and sometimes long after Niyat kaal the fruits of the same are observed.

In this way with support of Kaal Labdhi the Ekant Siddhant of Kram Baddha Paryaya does not get established.

(5) Aniyat (Undefined) samaya of Divine sermon-

You have tried to convert Aniyat kaal of Divya Dwani (divine sermon) into Niyat kaal which is not logical since neither the time for generation of doubt in the mind of Ganadhar is Niyat nor time of arrival of Chakravarthy in Samosharan is definite. If you believe this to be kaal labdhi or SwaKaal then it would be Aniyat kaal form only.

From the episode of Divya Dwani not transpiring for 66 days, this belief gets demolished that with presence of Upadan cause, the Nimitta cause becomes present automatically.

With the fulfilment of causal materials the Divya Dwani form event transpired, that only is kaal labdhi.

(6) Aniyat Kaal of salvation and karma Nirjara-

‘Paryayas are non sequential also’- this we had established earlier also. The time of generation of Samyak Darshan which denotes the beginning of Moksha Marg is also indefinite. The person who makes efforts and when he gets suitable supporting materials , then at Aniyat samaya Samyak darshan gets generated. In this way the time of Nirjara and salvation is uncertain.

Continued…..